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Forum:Classes - Active/Passive and counterparts
An official thread to discuss speculation about which classes are passive and active, and counterparts or opposites to each other continuing on from Talk:Mythological roles#Speculation. Here's a table I posted in that discussion summarising what we do know. The table only has 8 cells for 12 classes. Either 4 classes double up with others or; another row or two more columns need to be added. - The Light6 15:30, February 4, 2012 (UTC) :My current personal theory is that there are three for each gender grouping. Female exclusive: Sylph, Witch, Maid. Female biased: Seer, Thief, Rogue. Male biased: Page, Bard, Mage. Male exclusive: Heir, Prince, Knight. Although I think Knight and Page could maybe be swapped, as Page has stronger gender connotations, I suppose. Now, here's an odd fact that I just came across in the definitions for page: Any one of several species of colorful South American moths of the genus Urania. :3 But we know UU has a female-exclusive class, so this is no more than a curiosity. As for +/- pairs, I haven't really considered it in detail personally. But I could see there being pairs for different combinations of gender alignments, obviously prevented from covering all combinations by the finite number of classes. So I've thrown this together as what I guess is now my loose theory. In each pair, left is active, right is passive, and I've put Page as M-excl. and Knight as M-bias. This table is pleasingly symmetrical, although of course, that means nothing :3 : :...and remember, the operative words are "thrown this together" and "loose theory" :P ::Three for each gender grouping could also be expressed in my table as a third row. As UU seemed to only be speaking generally about active and passive classes and mentioned that some are move active or passive than others which would suggest that some are better described as neutral and are balanced between their powers helping themselves and helping their fellow players. ::As for being pairings I think the whole system is probably full of multiple pairings/counterparts and opposing classes for each class and that it would all tie into the gender groupings and passive/active groupings, eg. male/female counterparts, male/female opposing classes, active/passive counterparts, etc. I think the full picture will become clearer once more are clarified but I think that it will be slightly complicated and not a simple list of pairings. The Light6 02:29, February 8, 2012 (UTC) Updated my table to reflect new info, and looks like yours needs to be updated too. I would say that Bard and Heir need to be swapped. Also I would like to make a prediction by the end of Act 6.2 or 6.3 UU will have explained the Maid and Page classes and their counterparts and that all 4 of those classes will take up the remaining spots on my table meaning Page might be Mostly Male instead of Male Only. And then we won't get the remaining 4 classes until 6.3 (assuming it is done by the end of this act) or 6.4 (assuming it takes until the next sub-act). The Light6 11:01, February 9, 2012 (UTC) :While I could see Knight and Heir maaaaayyyybe being paired, it doesn't seem likely. Especially as I think both are probably active. But I don't plan to take my table seriously enough to do anything more than the suggested swap :3 :Well with the revelation that Witch is active and Seer is passive I added them in, but since we don't know if they are female exclusive or mostly female I added so they span both columns. Also with the unveiling of the two new master classes I worked them into the table too. The Light6 16:00, June 17, 2012 (UTC) I kind of spammed The Light6's user page with this information earlier, and he told me to put it in the speculation forum instead. This seems the appropriate thread for it, so here goes: Apologies for the huge text wall there, it got a little out of hand. 16:01, April 25, 2012 (UTC) -Zorithias I just want to list a few hints I think Hussie has dropped. For reference: On twitter: "The most active class out of the 12 standard classes is female, the two most passive ones are both male." On tumblr: Now this is not as straight forward as the twitter statement, but when he talks about Derse and Prospit Dreamers he implies that Derse dreamers are more active and Prospit dreamers are more passive. He says that the trolls reflect this perfectly if Nepeta and Vriska were swapped. I first took this to be about personalities, but Karkat is clearly a very active person for example, so I am pretty sure he was talking about classes here. Supporting this is the fact that Nepeta and Vriska are a active/passive pair class wise. So in other words this to me seems like he is saying all Derse trolls have an active class except for Nepeta, and all Prospit ones a passive one except for Vriska. Passive: Rogue (cofirmed), Bard (confirmed), Seer (confirmed), Sylph (strongly implied), Page, Knight. Active: Thief (confirmed), Prince (confirmed), Witch (confirmed), Maid, Heir SOllux was on both Derse and Prospit, but if we assume that there's a blance of active and passive that makes the Mage an active class. This suits my own ideas pretty well, so I might be biased. 09:17, June 18, 2012 (UTC) Apparently this is the more appropriate place to put this, so I bring it here. I see the class pairings as follows: Heir/Maid Mage/Seer Thief/Rogue Prince/Bard Witch/Sylph Knight/Page This gives each a thematic bond in both what they do, and the actual word of their title. I don't understand the theory that the Knight is a passive class- they actively use their aspect, what does their role of defending the other players matter in that light? Also re: Heir/Maid being both active... where is this implied? This has been brought up, but I don't know where this is coming from? Dogstarrb (talk) 23:53, August 6, 2012 (UTC) :The theory that the Knight is passive comes from how the passive/active dichotomy is more complex than how they use their aspect. And whether they used their aspect for themselves or for their team is part of the determination. eg. Thieves take for themselves, Rogues take for their team. So because Dave uses his aspect to protect his teammates it might be passive. Also this ties into how Heir might be active, John's aspect is never shown to aid his fellow teammates, only himself, sure John's actions (which may use his abilities) may be for his team but is like saying Vriska using her luck to role a perfect role against the Black King which helped her team makes her class passive. :Also their is the Derse/Prospit dreamer split between passive/active classes, with active more likely to be Derse dreamers, and passive more likely to be Prospit dreamers (inversely Derse dreamers are more likely to be assigned an active class, and Prospit dreamers are more likely to be assigned a passive class. :And of course both Knight and Heir (also since you mentioned it, Maid) have two players each, one a Prospit dreamer and other a Derse dreamer. :*Knight - Dave (Derse), Karkat (Prospit) :*Heir - John (Prospit), Equius (Derse) :*Maid - Aradia (Derse), Jane (Prospit) :I am fairly sure I could mention more but I rewrote this enough already and if I continue I will probably descend into rambling. The Light6 (talk) 06:28, August 7, 2012 (UTC) :But also classes are explained to have varying degrees of activeness/passivity. Muse is stated to be THE MOST passive. So it's probably less of a +/- flat dichotomy and more of a spectrum, with each "active and passive" distinction having more active and passive versions. Knight is either a very active passive, or a passive active. Inverse for Heir. These considerations don't invalidate my pairings, they just require looking at it as more gray and less black and white. Because Homestuck is full of gray area and shenanigans.Dogstarrb (talk) 06:35, August 7, 2012 (UTC) ::The assumption that maid and heir are active comes from Hussies implication that the trolls Derse/Prospit teams would be indicative if Nepeta and Vriska were swapped. That would invalidating your pairings, but we don't know what exactly Hussie meant when he said that. So no, ofcourse your pairings are still valid. 07:35, August 7, 2012 (UTC) I just thought of something else, what if each session has a balance between active and passive players as well? It's true for the trolls and for the cherubs. In the B1 kid's session Rose is a passive class and Jade is an active class, John and Dave are not confirmed, so one could be active and the other passive. In the B1 kid's session Roxy is passive and Dirk is active, and again the two other players are unconfirmed. If the troll teams, with Vriska and Nepeta swapped are indicative of the passive active groups of classes, then Jake would be passive, Jane active, Dave passive and John active. That would balance every session out. Ofcourse nobody every said there has to be a balance in a session, but it seems like something Sburb or Hussie would do. 07:35, August 7, 2012 (UTC) :Actually I had subconsciously been assuming that sessions were mostly active/passive balanced. But it does leave Heir/Knight and Page/Maid in a position where one might reveal the other. Also on that note, we have 8 duplicate classes, of those, 5 of them have been shared between Prospit and Derse (Heir, Seer, Knight, Witch and Maid), with one being confirmed passive, one confirmed active, and 3 unconfirmed. Than we have the two Rogues, a passive class yet both Derse dreamers. Than we have the two Princes, an active class and both Derse dreamers. Than we have the two Pages, both Prospit dreamers. :(Just thinking that once the alignment of all the classes is known the arguing will change to being where all the classes lie over the scale from most passive (Muse) to most active (Caliborn's class), I am just going to say pre-emptively for when that day comes that if we assume Waste as canon that it would lie at exact neutral) The Light6 (talk) 12:21, August 7, 2012 (UTC) Updating table from above: Knight is in parenthesis because we don't know for certain that they are passive. Mage is in paranthesis because we don't know if they really are the active counterpart to the Seer. 12:50, November 25, 2012 (UTC) Just throwing in my personal predictions for it, I can also see Heir and Maid being gender exclusive though, but still paired together. 16:24, November 25, 2012 (UTC) I agree with that mostly, I guess I'll put my prediction up too. I am putting Page as male exclusive and passive because Hussie said the two most passive classes are male ( has to be bard and page, because Knight can be female and the other male classes are confirmed to be active...except for Heir, but I kinda doubt that's a passive class) , and the most active one is female (witch). The only thing that bothers me is that one class pair (page and maid) does not share the same gender preference, but this is always the case unless maid or sylph turn out to be gender neutral. Or perhaps muse is paired with maid and lord with page, but it would seem odd to pair the master classes with a normal class, and not with eachother. Either way, adjectives for the pairs in this case would be: *Thief/Rogue: steal *Mage/Seer: understand or direct *Prince/Bard: destroy *Heir/Knight: protect *Witch/Sylph: ??heal/repair/manipulate/change?? *Maid/Page: ??inspire/grow/develop/assist?? 17:24, November 25, 2012 (UTC) Personally, I've always thought of it like this: Action - Active - Passive Steal - Thief - Rogue Destroy - Prince - Bard Create/Provide - Maid - Sylph Manipulate/Protect - Heir - Witch Know - Mage - Seer Exploit - Knight - Page Change - Lord - Muse *Vriska steals Light for her own benefit, Roxy steals through Void for her teammates' benefit. *Eridan destroyed through Hope to satisfy his genocidal complex, Gamzee invited destruction through Rage for his teammates' benefit. *Aradia created Time for herself, Aranea provided Light to others (remember her exposition stand?). *John manipulated Breath to protect himself, Jade manipulated Space to protect the residents of the Incipisphere. *Meulin understood Heart for her own shipping interests, Rose understood Light for her teammates' benefit. *Dave exploited Time for his own benefit (getting rich through the LOHACSE) while Jake was destined to exploit Hope for his teammates' benefit. *(I'm talking about change on a cosmic scale here.) Lord English (who we all know is Caliborn) wrecked shit up in the Furthest Ring using Time. Calliope inspired change of Space by uniting the ghosts in the dream bubbles in searching for her. Anyway, just my two cents. AnimeApprentice (talk) 01:35, November 26, 2012 (UTC) :OK just updated the table at the beginning of the article to what we know. But now my opinions. Bolded confirmed ones, and put italics on ones which are confirmed to have a bias but the alignment of the bias is unconfirmed. :Female exclusive - Witch, Maid, Sylph and Muse, :Female biased - Thief, Rogue and Seer. :Male biased - Mage, Heir and Knight. :Male exclusive - Page, Bard, Prince and Lord. :Page and Heir can be swapped, but that is where I personally think they go. And while none of the standard female exclusives are confirmed to be so, given that equal numbers between male exclusives and female exclusives is confirmed, that means 2 of them have to be. Both Heir and Page could theoretically be male biased which would mean one of those female classes could be biased instead of exclusive, but I doubt it. :Also it has been said that overall that active tilt towards male. That means counting the master classes, the standard classes can be evenly divided by gender into passive and active alignments. Given that the active/passive alignments also exist on a scale and the master classes are at the end of that scale, and the tilt towards active male is only supposed to be slight that means the standard classes would have to have a slight active female tilt to balance out with the master classes. :If a female class goes at -4, that automatically makes the standard classes have an active female tilt, even if the remaining female classes are all passive. But that would give males a massive (-8) active tilt, not a slight one, however given I assume at least 3 female actives giving the other one even the -1 position reduces the active male tilt over females to -6. However the same result can be gained from giving females both the -2 and the -3 positions (with males holding -1 and -4). However given that -6 is a still a bit more than what I would call slight, that means that females likely hold -4 and either -3 or -2, which would produce a male tilt of -2 and -4 respectfully. - The Light6 (talk) 14:55, December 1, 2012 (UTC) :: OK, I think I've cracked it. I think you're on to something with that spectrum table, so here's mine: *So the most active (other than Lord) was a female class. This leaves Maid (unlikely, as they act very passive and are probably closer to the middle of the spectrum), Witch (most likely) and Thief (unlikely, as it can be assigned to males). *The two most passive (other than Muse) are male. This gives us Knight (unlikely, as they are very active and are more likely the counter to Maid), Rogue (unlikely, as it is usually assigned to females), Seer (unlikely, for the same reason), Bard, and Page. *Since Bard and Page are more likely to be the two on the most-passive side, Page would be more passive than Bard because Bard hass to balance Prince. *Since Knight/Maid seem passive/active in theory but act more active/passive respectively, these two are probably in the middle of the spectrum right next to each other. *I have reason to believe Rogue and Thief are the next two out. *Since Mage is likely connected to Seer, that leaves Heir connected to Sylph. This makes sense, as the Heir of Breath appeared to have an almost magical relationship to wind, and a Sylph was described "like a Witch, but more magical". *The final placements then go to the fact that both Heir and Seer played more active roles than their Mage and Sylph neighbours. *This table ends up Male=Active biased. ::Yes, this fits. Taneth (talk) 23:14, December 1, 2012 (UTC) Nothing new, just summarising all active/passive stuff into a single thing. - The Light6 (talk) 02:35, December 2, 2012 (UTC) Sorry for asking but where did Hussie say all this stuff about classes and the activeness/passiveness spectrum? AnimeApprentice (talk) 07:47, December 2, 2012 (UTC) : , in particular, the master classes being at the ends of it, there was some controversy over it and he revealed on twitter that the most active standard class was female and the two most passive standard classes were male. Hence the extrapolation, if the second most active was female too we could assume he would've said that the two most active standard classes were female, not just the most active standard. Same with the passive end. As for the scale having a slight active male tilt, I can't recall that, it was probably also on his twitter. When he also revealed that Witch was an active class (reddit question answers on Tumblr) he said it was a "highly active class", making most people assume that it was the most active standard class since that was confirmed female, the second most active being likely male, and 3rd most active standard is more middle-ish which doesn't fit being called "highly active". - The Light6 (talk) 08:14, December 2, 2012 (UTC) Okay, here's my take on things: AnimeApprentice (talk) 11:34, December 2, 2012 (UTC) Prince is actually confirmed male. I'm personally convinced that "Muse, Page, Bard ......Prince, Witch, Lord" is pretty certain (potentially bard and page being swapped, I guess). But what goes on in the middle of the scale...no idea. Especially since gender neutral classes further complicate working out how to put them to archieve a slight male=active bias. Which is something we are kinda ignoring in the table this thread resulted in...but I don't know how else to deal with it either. 23:20, December 23, 2012 (UTC) Just posting a small table depicting an . - The Light6 (talk) 13:44, December 24, 2012 (UTC) ---- Well this page has gotten a little old and unwieldy, and some of the speculation here dates back to before we knew Bard/Prince was even a pairing. Of course since then, we learnt they were a pairing, we learnt the existence of the master classes, we had Seer confirmed passive, Witch confirmed active, seen a male Seer, seen a female Mage and Knight. So I think it is time to start fresh. So new thread: Forum:Classes - Part 2 - The Light6 (talk) 04:29, January 7, 2013 (UTC)